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How To Grow Product Sales Through Persistence and Innovation -

Having a great product is the first step toward a successful business, however, it takes persistence, grit, and ingenuity to grow that business on a large scale. Today we speak with Derek Monk, owner and inventor of, who launched his business at the age of 22. He shares with us how he has grown sales for three really unique kitchen products through persistence. Whatever stage your business is at, you’re really going to enjoy the interview.

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In today’s episode of the Harvest Growth Podcast, we’ll cover:

  • How persistence helped Derek get his products into Bed Bath & Beyond, Home Goods, HSN, and onto Good Morning America

  • How he was able to keep costs low, shorten lead time, and sell thousands more units by manufacturing his products in the USA

  • Derek’s system for innovation that helps grow existing sales and incremental revenues through new product launches

  • And so much more!


You can listen to the full interview on your desktop or wherever you choose to listen to your podcasts.

Or, watch the full video interview here!


Visit to learn more about these innovative kitchen products and use “harvestgrowth” at checkout for a 20% off discount.

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Do you have a brand that you’d like to launch or grow? Do you want help from a partner that has successfully launched hundreds of brands that now total over $2 billion in revenues? Set up a free consultation with us today!


Prefer reading instead of listening? Read the full transcript here!

Jon LaClare: Today's interview is with an inventor that launched his business at the age of 22, not that many years ago, and through persistence, grit, and ingenuity, he has grown sales for three really unique kitchen products. Whatever stage your business is at, you're really going to enjoy this interview.


Welcome to another episode of The Harvest Growth podcast, focused on helping consumer product companies, inventors, and entrepreneurs harvest the growth potential of their consumer product businesses. Today, I'm really excited to be speaking with Derek Monk. He's the owner, inventor, and founder of It's spelled kitchin, I-N, so We'll put that in the show notes for everybody as well. He has three really cool innovations in the kitchen space we're going to talk about today. He's got some cool success stories along the way that he's been able to enjoy his business as well. We'll hear all about that and really learn from Derek and how he's been able to create this successful business. Derek, welcome to the show.

Derek Monk: Thanks, Jon. Appreciate it. Glad to be here. Thank you for everything you do for inventors. Like I said, I'm a little new to learning about Harvest Growth, but I've really, really loved everything you've put out and it's been helpful to me as well.

Jon: Ah, thank you. I really appreciate. This is one of my passions a hobby running this show and I'd just love the chance to meet with great inventors like yourself and talk about cool products. Thanks for taking the time. We've got three products. We're going to talk about, the Spoon Buddy, Pan Buddy, and the Strip-n-Snip product. These are all your inventions. Can you take a minute or so, and describe each one of these products?

Derek: Sure. The first one I came up with was the Spoon Buddy. What the Spoon Buddy is, it's a spoon rest with a suction cup at the base. Actually, you can suction it on top of a lid, countertop, or table, any smooth surface, like it's glass, granite, metal, anything that's, it's a nice smooth polish surface. What it does, is allows us a convenient place to rest your messy utensil. Instead of making a mess in your countertops, having your utensil fall in the pot, your Spoon Buddy right there, it's got a little catch tab here, that's part of our patent, that actually can hold any size utensil. It can hold tongs, even a spatula. It can really hold a wide variety of utensils, whereas if we didn't have that, it could only hold small spoons.

That's a big part of the product. Came up with it when it was Thanksgiving. We had all the family over, it was a buffet-style set up and everyone was taking their utensil and serving out mashed potatoes, green beans, gravy, and then they were just putting it right on the countertop next to it, or having it fall in the pot or get hot sitting there. That's when the idea really clicked for me. It actually turned into more than just that as well. You can flip it over because it's like a cup shape, can flip it over and help open jars, you can also suction it to a plate and turn a plate into a lid. You can literally just suction it down onto it and pick it up. It's also exactly half a cup. That's another huge thing, when creating a product just features and benefits as many as you can get when you're developing it, it's more value to the customer and it'll stand out more from your competition.

Then second product I have is the Pan Buddy. This one came out. I had the idea right in the beginning of COVID, my grandmother, I used to go over there to her house once a week or so to have dinner. She has a nice cast iron skillet she always cooks on and she always needs help lifting it out of the drawers or moving it from the stove to the table or anything like that. We weren't able to be together for a while. I clicked in my mind that it would be really nice if you could have something for people that have issues with the heaviness, the weight of the cast-iron skillet, and something that could add leverage and support.

What the Pan Buddy does is you actually slide this opening over your existing handle, so imagine like a cast iron skillet handle here, and then you screw the handle down onto it until it becomes secure, and now you have a vertical grip with support under your wrist. Instead of this awkward motion here where your wrist is strained, and you're trying to pick up something that's 9, 10 pounds with one hand and it's hot, those cast iron skillet handles get hot. I don't care if you have a towel or silicone grips that slide all over the place, but they really do get hot.

The Pan Buddy creates a vertical handle there that keeps your wrist straight and has support under the base. That's really the idea for that and the solution, and we're getting a lot of good feedback. We started selling that, really started getting it out there in the beginning of this year, beginning of 2022 and getting a lot of-- That's been the best selling product since it came out. A lot of people are enjoying that. Also, our newest product though, is a Strip-n-Snip scissors. What these are, is they're a four-in-one scissor. We took your regular herb stripping tool. There's a tool confided online, it's pretty popular, you might even have one at home, but all it is, it's a plastic piece that has different size holes to pull the stem of your herb through.

When you pull the stem through, it releases or removes all of the herbs, everything that you-- You can't eat the stem, so you got to release the leaves and any of the part of the herbs, so [unintelligible 00:05:24], oregano, anything like that, it works really good for. It also has a bottle opener feature within the blade as well so you can use that to help open bottles. Then you have a walnut cracker/water bottle opener as well, high-quality stainless steel, we keep all of our packaging branding the same, but that's been a good product as well too, and that's something that's new and people are starting to enjoy that. My mind's always cooking in the kitchen, so just now that I know how to do it with the first one, just keep creating more, that's the goal.

Jon: As you said so far, the Pan Buddy has become your best seller?

Derek: It hasn't sold more than the Spoon Buddy in lifetime sales because the Spoon Buddy, we came out with the end of '17, really started selling in '18, and the Pan Buddy just the end of last year, beginning of 2022. Since it came out, when we air it in a Good Morning America segment where all the products are together whenever people come to our website now, currently the Pan buddy is our best seller.

Jon: Got it. Very cool. I'd liked how you talked about the benefit of added uses for your product, so specifically for the Spoon Buddy, you mentioned how it measures, was it a half cup, you said?

Derek: Half cup. Exactly the half cup.

Jon: When you've got additional uses, anything you can add onto your product, a lot of times what happens, we've seen this so many times in marketing is you get your consumers, your potential buyers leaning forward, they're interested when they see a video, they see a website, whatever it might be, and they're almost on the verge of buying, and then that last little bit, anything actually you can add, it gets them over the edge and gets them excited and ready to purchase. That's a great thing, I think you brought up.

Derek: Definitely. That's always important. I know like my time with HSN, just dealing with them as well, live shopping, stuff like that, they want you to hit all those features and benefits, like you said, not only online marketing, but live TV, they might almost be calling the phone, but then they hear the last one, they're like, "Okay, I need that."

Jon: Exactly. Talk about your experience on HSN. How was it selling live?

Derek: It was really cool. That was honestly my biggest goal, I think starting with the Spoon Buddy product. It's a very demonstrateable product, it's a product that needs to be demonstrated, I've I found out. Got into some good retailers and it sold well into-- I got into Bed Bath & Beyond Home Goods, a few of the big retailers. I really have always known that the product needed to be demonstrated to really catch on. HSN, QVC, those are perfect platforms for that. I tried for a while, went to trade shows, reached out, cold-called, and finally through all the efforts, they did end up replying and I'm in South Florida, they're in West Coast.

I said, "Hey, I'm going to be over there next week. Next week? I'd love to meet you. I wasn't going to be, but if they said yes, then I got my car and got over there. That was it. We had a meeting and great company to work with, honestly. I can't say enough good things about HSN and their employees and everything. I went down the path of, I really wanted to present the product myself as well. I did all the training. They run you through a full-day class, you practice with their real host. I practiced with Guy Yovan, who's actually I've been on with live four times, I think with Guy. I'm really comfortable with him and he was super helpful. You're there with a class of maybe 10 other people that are learning to be on-air guests.

They go through everything, everything the customer wants to hear, everything you need to do, all the little things you got to have in the back of your head while you're presenting. Like I said, it was early on, I was able to present the product in February of 2020. It was right when COVID hit. Right after that, they went to Skype presentations, which was a little bit different, but it was really cool that I was able to be in the studio there with all the cameras and everything. It really is a crazy experience. That was awesome. Then having to adapt and learn with Skype and do that, almost half a dozen times since then has been a learning process as well. Like I said, that's been a huge goal from the beginning and it's a really cool experience.

Jon: That world really has changed. I recently interviewed Bob Circosta, the original HSN pitchman has been there. I think it was like, I can't remember. It's tens of thousands of hours he spent on HSN over the years. It's crazy. He talks a lot about the difference going from live to Skype. It's great that you had the opportunity to do both, frankly, because it's a very unique experience being there in person. Of course being, and over the recorded Skype, not recorded, but over Skype as well. That's great.

Derek: Exactly. I'm so happy. I was able to have the in-person. It was a little more nerve-wracking, I'd say, but it was also so rewarding because you're there and you're seeing people like Bob and other people that you see on TV coming in and out of the studio. Mindy, one of the directors there, after the show, she gives me high five. It was just such a cool experience. Actually, there was a story behind that too. We had an early morning segment the first time for the Spoon Buddy. It's like 7:00 AM, earliest segment they had, I think we were the second product on. I'm with Guy, and I'm presenting a product and did my whole pitch.

It all went pretty well, I thought, but I got my car and I was like, well, I'm done now. I guess I'm going to drive back home in two and a half, three hours. I stuck around for a little bit and had breakfast, but then went to drive back home and I get a phone call about an hour out of HSN from one of their producers. They said, "Hey, would you be able to present at four o'clock today?"

I'm like, "Oh, wow." I was like, "Well, I guess the product did well." They're like, "Yes, it did well." I had the best-selling kitchen product that day. My first time ever being on TV and everything. I turned around, I was an hour out. I turned around, went back in, took a quick nap at a family member's house that was in the area. Got back on TV at four o'clock and pitched it again with Tamara. It was really cool.

Jon: Well, that's a cool experience. You talked before about how long it took you to get on HSN the first time. It's often the case. Whether it's them or dealing with a big retailer, you really just need patience frankly oftentimes as an adventure and keep working at it, and you get that great opportunity. It's funny, once you turn the corner and get in whether it's on HSN or on the shelves at Bed Bath & Beyond or Walmart. It becomes so fast-paced. Where it's like, you think you're, "Oh, I might be done for a couple of months." Boom, two hours later you're back on the air. It's really interesting, I think behind the scenes there, how many last-minute decisions are made to fill slots and last-minute products.

Derek: I never realized that as well. I was talking with another person there. They had this bread product and it was supposed to go on like four times and, oh, it keeps getting pushed, but they make decisions to change like up to a couple of hours, hour before. I've had some Skype ones that have been canceled the night of, it really is live shopping, and I don't know the analytics and everything that they review to determine what is right at what time, but it's a really cool business. I've always been really interested in it.

Jon: For sure. [unintelligible 00:13:07] opportunity so many times as well. One of the things I love about your business is the innovation you've had. You started off with one really cool, innovative product. So many times an inventor of a great product stops. They've got that awesome product and they just grow the business from there, but you kept your innovation going. I think that's a great example, but it's a great way to continue to grow our businesses whether it's innovations within a product improving it as we go, or whether it's additionally like you've done of coming up with other products. Is there a process, how do you come up with these ideas that are so, I would say, unique and different?

Derek: Well, the one thing that I'll always say is I knew I was pretty young when I started Kitchin. I was 22 years old when I started, but I always knew that I wanted to make this a company of many products. I actually had a different product before the Spoon Buddy that I was working on and the manufacturing was becoming too difficult. It's one of those things where I was learning a lot, what it takes to develop a product. I was like, "My first product, I don't know if this is going to be a little too expensive, it's a little too risky, the price point's a little too high." I actually had the idea for the Spoon Buddy six months, let's say, into trying to develop that other product.

That's when I saw it as something that now that I know the process is, and that's the thing. Once you have one, you really understand what it takes and it's not always that hard, but you understand the ins and outs of CAD and molding and why some pieces have to be made a certain way and it reduces your cost and molding, everything like that. You understand all that when you start going through it.

With the Spoon Buddy, we created that mold. Got it out pretty quick after I had the idea, from idea to mold start selling was like six months. I think that's pretty good because it takes two months usually to develop a mold. That was my product that I saw could open the door to these other products. As you just mentioned a couple of minutes ago, once you get in once, it really is a lot easier. I can send an email right off to any of these buyers now and everything, and get it and get a response within a day or less. They have that relationship. They know you're trustworthy, they know you deliver a good product. Just having that ability just allows you to be able to grow a lot easier as well.

Jon: We've had the pleasure of working with hundreds of inventors and literally launching hundreds of products over the last 15 years. I always coach our new inventors. The ones that are like they have a brand new first-time product. They're so excited, and so are we, but I always say this is a fun process once you get through it once. For us, it's the marketing side. For you, it's the development side and marketing, of course, running the whole business. It's addictive, because you figure out the process, it's very repeatable.

I think as you mentioned, the innovation side, once you get your mind working that direction, you're looking for other ideas, that becomes repeatable, but so is the marketing and development side in part because of relationships that you developed, in part because of just understanding the processes and being able to repeat similar things you did before, even if you're in a new or different market with your other one and really looking to grow in that direction as well.

Derek: Definitely. I actually self-taught myself AutoCAD as well. That's been really nice because with the Spoon Buddy, I designed this all in AutoCAD. I have the first prototypes. You could see the file down to the first circle that was drawn to be able to create it. It's really cool because that, I'm not an engineer. I went to school for business management at UCF, but I think that that is a huge benefit early on as an entrepreneur is being able to take your designs, prototype them, change them so quickly. There's times where I would get the first 3D print and be so excited that I got it back, but know that there needed to be changes. I would just stay up until two, three in the morning modifying that.

I could send it to the 3D printer the next morning and say, "Hey, now put this one." Just being able to do that and instead of having to translate your idea, something that's in your mind to an engineer, engineers can be expensive too, but just someone who doesn't have the exact idea, there's a lot of back and forth that can really string out that development process. Having that knowledge has really been a big asset to me, I think, as well.

Jon: Two of your products; Pan Buddy and Spoon Buddy are entirely made in the USA. Frankly, you should be congratulated for that because it's not easy to get to that step, but I know it's something important for you. They're still at good prices. So oftentimes we talk to inventors that have great ideas. They find a US manufacturer and it costs five times as much, and no one's going to buy it, but you've kept the value down the quality up, and still able to manufacture in the US. First of all, how have you been able to do that?

Derek: Yes, definitely. I think it is something that hopefully more people will be able to figure out how to do, and hopefully that we can bring some manufacturing back here to the US. I think the biggest thing is how the product is made, how it's manufactured as well. That's one of the first big steps. If it's something that does, unfortunately, require a lot of manual labor or assembly or things like that, it's kind of-- It's the way economics work. Places with lower labor rates, you can make a product for less if the labor is very important, but the good thing for the Spoon Buddy and the Pan Buddy as well, they're injection molded products. Yes, there is labor that needs to be there, there's labor that needs to run the machines.

I go down to our manufacturing facility in Fort Lauderdale and do quality checks. There's still people there working and it's nice supporting people in the US and giving them jobs and wages. Let's say each product doesn't require a lot of assembly or anything like that. The injection molding, it comes down to cavities as well, per mold. For example, the Spoon Buddy has a two-cavity mold, so I'm able to make two every minute. You have your hourly rate for the labor, things like that. You have your cost of your material.

If you can pick a material that's not super expensive, something that is a little more common out there, like a thermoplastic, polypropylene-- What's the other one? ABS, just some materials like that, that are more out there, more readily available, and it'll work for your product then that really makes a big difference as well. I really think there's a lot of benefits to having the product made in the US, not just even if it does cost, let's say a little bit more. Let's say it costs twice as much to have your product made in the US, or 50% more.

Some of the huge benefits, and I was explaining this earlier [unintelligible 00:24:04] is that you have a lot of control over your supply. Everyone saw all the containers that were backed up in the port about a year, year and a half ago. It was crazy how long it would take to get things out of port. A lot of retailers were canceling orders to suppliers because they couldn't get the product in time. They're trying to get it for the holidays, it's not here.

With me, if I have the materials ready to go, the mold is available to be put on, we can start making a thousand units a day or more than that with increased cavities and molds, but it just makes it to where your lead times are a lot less to retailers, which they love. It opens up opportunities. I've been on Good Morning America, and one of the times we are back-ordered or we sold out of everything that we had in stock that we put on GoodMorning America. It was a really awesome experience, but we were able to back order certain units, because they said, if you can ship within 30 days, then we can have a certain amount backorders.

65-70% of our sales from that segment were on backorder units. We would've never gotten those sales if we weren't able to make the product in the US and have that control and lead time controlled there. That's been a huge benefit. Like I said, there's a lot of uncertainties with any manufacturer, but just having that, those few benefits are really important to me and have made kitchen mentions successful in my opinion.

Jon: The operations of a business often take a back seat, right? There's so many seats to figure out marketing, sales, operations, development, et cetera, but operations, including logistics or inventory management can be so hard. When you've got a four or five, six-month lead time bringing products in from overseas. Like you said, in some markets, you have to right there, unfortunately, it's hard to make here, but if you can bring it stateside, there can be a great benefit that maybe it's a little higher cost manufacturer, so many cost savings and certainly time savings as well, or opportunity cost as you mentioned with those sales opportunity happened.

Derek: Opportunity cost, no tariffs, just a lot of things like that. The last few years have definitely been a change and I've-- You hear it a lot in politics as well. A lot of people do want things made in the US and who knows the right or wrong way to do it politically? In general, I think it is important. I think that having American-made products are value add as well.

Jon: Yes, love it. You talked a little bit about Good Morning America and getting on that show a couple of times. Can you talk about any advice you have for our listeners on getting an opportunity like that? May not be GMA for everybody, maybe it's the Today Show, maybe it's something else, but any advice you have for them?

Derek: Definitely. I mean, one of the things is be persistent, for sure. I first communicated with them, right when I started with the Spoon Buddy. I think I looked back, I think my first emails guy were like early 2018. I was a nobody at that point. I was some guy with a new product that doesn't have much of a track record. There's a couple of reviews online, but it was just very early on. I think that the more you're around, the more that you let them know of improvements, "Oh, hey, we got this into this store or this into this." Or, "Hey, check out this new airing that we had on a local news thing or something like that." The more that you do, the more, it kind of catches their eyes and things like that.

It took me a few years to be completely honest from the first time where I was talking to the right people there and to them actually saying, "Yes, how about this segment on this date?" Obviously, we said, "Yes, did everything we could to make it work, but it was worth it," because it's I mean the exposure on the nation's largest morning show is really a lot. When we did all the fulfillment, I actually did a lot of that in-house as well, like have a warehouse, hired some temporary workers to handle that increased demand, and just the amount of orders that you're getting. It's really fulfilling as an entrepreneur as well because it's something to where you see it, you keep hitting all these goals and mile marks where you're getting into this retailer or hitting this sales goal or things like that, but when you get a rush of thousands of orders and you just see that your product's going into all those homes and it's really cool.

Jon: Love it. It's a great story to share.

Derek: How GMA works kind of is they do require 50% discount. They want their viewers to have a really good deal on your product. That makes it a little harder. It's like selling wholesale, but then you have to make sure you factor in all your costs, what it's going to cost you to ship the products, everything like that. They take a small commission as well with that. Other than that, it's really good, they're good to work with. Tori does a great job on their presenting products. She's very passionate about it. Anyone that can have the opportunity to definitely look into that because it's a good way to get your product out there and get some good exposure.

Jon: You talked about the word persistence with Good Morning America, with HSN, and other opportunities. We keep calling them opportunities, but you create your own opportunities. It does take work, it takes persistence, and the biggest success is yourself included. It's not easy. You have to have a great product, of course, but that's where the work starts. That's where you start to get into these opportunities, and it certainly does take persistence along the way, so I'm glad you brought that up. Derek, do you have any resources that you use that have been helpful to you that you recommend to our audience?

Derek: Yes, definitely. I guess one of the biggest resources that I find for getting ahold of these companies and just getting that first, getting a little kindled to the fire is really getting on LinkedIn. Go and find the company that you want to reach out to, search their employees, put in the search bar someone who you think is the right contact, and try to reach out there. Maybe you can call their corporate number, try to get ahold of them. I got a lot of stories with that as well and I think that's a huge thing. Just doing that LinkedIn, also I've talked with other entrepreneurs as well.

People that I think have really cool products, I've been able to help them get into some of the retailers that I've got into because I believe in their products as well, but also having someone else that's in a similar position as you, I know you've said this in a few of your podcasts before, but someone who might be a little bit ahead of you, that you can bounce ideas off of. I've been lucky enough to find someone, he had a product called the Kitchen Cube and we have monthly calls and we're both in pretty similar circumstances. He's done some things that have worked really well and he's created those and I've created mine and we try to combine those and benefit each other because at the end of the day, I guess you could call us competitors but our products are different.

He's patented his product, mine's patented. We're not going to knock each other off but we want to help each other and say, "Hey, yes. No, I reached out to this company. They wrote me a big PO," or, "Hey, here's how I did this and we bounced that off of each other." It's almost having like a little bit of like a pen pal entrepreneur. I think that's important to have and someone says you don't feel alone sometimes because it can be a lonely process when you're doing it on your own, if you don't have a co-founder or something like that.

Jon: Absolutely that's great advice. Is there anything, Derek, that I didn't ask you in this interview that you think would be helpful for our audience?

Derek: No. I think we covered just about everything. Like I said, I think the biggest thing is-- One thing I always tell anyone that comes to me with ideas, I just had a meeting earlier this week with someone who had some inventions that they've seen how to pursue it and I'm always open to things like that, but it really is just down to the smallest. People get so caught up and I have this idea, it's a million-dollar idea, I'm going to sell so many of it and it pulls you away from what's really important into getting there. That is just doing, what is the next step with the prototypes? "How do I make a prototype? Oh, I do AutoCAD." Okay. Get on YouTube. How do you do AutoCAD? Oh, here's how I do AutoCAD.

Every day, just putting on a notepad that's what's worked for me. What are the three or four things that I need to get through just to get to the next step, because once you have the prototypes out, now you have to work on packaging. Now you have to get a barcode. How do you get a barcode? It's a bunch of accumulation of a bunch of small things that get you to that final goal and I think that's the important thing that's overlooked sometimes. Everyone wants an easy path or just think that their product's a million-dollar product, but just those small steps, and just having passion and like you said, "Persistence to get through each one and still have the enthusiasm to wanna keep going."

Jon: Great. Well said. All of us as inventors or entrepreneurs, our friends approach us like, "Oh, I saw that idea, I had that same idea five years ago. It could have been me kind of thing." It's true to some extent, but I think what happens so often is you look forward, if you have an idea and you see there's a thousand steps to get from idea into success. I like how you said that, it's not really a thousand in a day though, it seems so overwhelming, but it's two or three, four at a time, like chunk it up in small pieces and take these small increments and celebrate those successes along the way. Like, "Hey, I learned CAD today." That's a huge win. Tomorrow I'm going to make a CAD or whatever, a cat design, whatever it might be. [crosstalk]

Derek: Another thing as well too, is when you're talking with like an injection molding facility, like the one I have down in Fort Lauderdale. They'll tell you things to get you through that you didn't even know, like, "Oh, what shore value do you need for your product?" I didn't know what shore value was, "Oh, what does that mean? Then you test a few different ones, "Oh, I need a 55 shore value." Just certain stuff that it's like once you engage in that dialogue and once you have something that you can begin to work off of, then you'll figure it out along the way, but you just have to do it on that very step by step approach and just don't get too overwhelmed, but just every day, do something to progress it.

Jon: Well said. I want to encourage our audience, please, check out Derek's, website. He's got a few of them, again, the spelling is in the show notes, but it's spelled like kitchen, but I-N,

Derek: It's K-I-T-C-H then the word, inventions. That's the way I say it.

Jon: Better said. That's good clarification or maybe easier to remember or to know how to spell is or

Derek: Exactly.

Jon: Again, check it out in the show notes. Derek's been nice enough to share a discount code or promo code with our audience as well. If you use the promo code harvestgrowth, one word, you get a 20% off discount, on their website with any products you want to purchase from them as well. At a minimum, I encourage you to check out the website, really cool products, great work that Derek's done here. Also, be sure to check out harvest growth to see other episodes we've recorded. If you like this episode, you want to learn more about how you can profitably grow your own consumer product business. Please subscribe to our show and leave us a review at iTunes for Google play, Derek, thanks again for your time.

Derek: Thank you, Jon, it was a pleasure. That was really fun.

[00:36:35] [END OF AUDIO]


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